Saturday 11 April 2020

If you live by your philosophy for five years, what's the outcome? And if you live by mine… ?

samtc ~  3:01 PM
Great vids :thumbsup::thumbsup:

Tobin ~  3:03 PM
i agree practical philosophy always appreciated.

samtc ~  3:08 PM
If only I knew what I wanted to be, and what it means to be good :laughing::disappointed:

Tobin ~  3:10 PM
i believe ur supposed to try things and see if u can see urself doing that for the next 5 - 10 years and decide if your contribution would be meaningful
s/ to be good is virtuous lol its so obvious

MattOverDriver ~  3:12 PM
Who doesn't do that though :joy:

Witty_Fool_63 ~  3:22 PM
Re: "Escaping the Cult of Happiness: the Product of How You Spend Your Time is YOU."

It gets worse than music. I once in my Buddhist days knew a Sri Lankan woman who was a family friend, and she was a mother. (In many Asian cultures we would refer to her an an aunty, but we are not related.) So this aunty told me she would go to the Temple to chant in Pali, and I asked her if she ever chanted in Sinhalese or English, she said no. I asked if she at least knew the meaning of what she was chanting, she said no. And she said she felt happy, peaceful and calm. If my mother weren't there with me, who recently after a time of great abuse she inflicted upon me, I would have strongly reprimanded her like the Buddha would reprimand foolish disciples in the suttas, yes the Buddha reprimands many for having stupid ideas and behaviours etc. I could appreciate if it were the case she didn't have the time, ability, recources amongst other things to learn scholarly languages for Buddhism, but I could not appreciate her choosing not to read the suttas of the Early Buddhist Texts, as it was the case for the majority of Buddhists I came across.

Jonmonji ~  3:31 PM
@a-bas-le-ciel (Youtube name) I would love to hear what your thoughts are on reading a work of fiction and if that's a waste of time, or if even creating such a work would be a waste.

When it comes to the distinction between a game of chess and (or in my case, a grand strategy game like Civilization IV) and a racing game, I would think that the decisions that those types of games force you to make would be what gives those activities value. I inclined to think that the balance that the player has to strike between long term planning and reacting to unforseen circumstances would provide the type of stimulation that could serve as a form of mental exercise.

From my experiences playing civ 6, the activity where some of my bias is held, I've felt many moments of indicision where I had to compromise and make a decision in an unideal situation, while trying to consider what impact that decision may have on other systems in the game. I would like to think that those types of mentally straining situations would reflect to some degree in my ability to do things like: juggling multiple partially related factors when decision making, putting together plans that don't pay off until much later in the future, sacrificing short term payoffs to be able to fulfill those those longer term plans, and sacrificing the potential to complete certain objectives that would have been nice to see in order to accplish something else that represents more value.

Sorry for how wordy this post turned out to be, these last couple videos have me really intreuged, and though I'm not yet fully convinced of every thing that comes with this form of this perspective, these last two videos really do have me reassessing how I think of the activities that make up my life. I'm super exited to have joined this discord

MattOverDriver ~  3:34 PM
When you say you'd like to think Civ 6 translates to decision making outside of the game, have you noticed that or?

a-bas-le-ciel (Youtube name) ~  3:35 PM
@Friedtofu You are in the same position as a crackhead saying, "You don't know how wonderful it is to get high every day for two months straight... If only you tried it... You'd realize that you were as ignorant before as an illiterate reviling Aristotle".

Dude, when I say the most pathetic people of all are the ones who are happy I AM TALKING ABOUT YOU.

Your bullshit justification for playing classical music: you're every bit as pathetic as the churchgoer in rapture...

a-bas-le-ciel (Youtube name) ~  3:38 PM
@Friedtofu In your case, it's even worse, because you don't even perceive your beliefs as faith: you're so committed to this bullshit that you think the "superiority" of J.S. Bach (Mer Han En Neue Oberkeet) over rap music is some kind of objective reality...

...rather than just an idol you abase yourself in front of.

Friedtofu ~  3:38 PM
I mentioned opera and ballet, neither of which Bach wrote any of

a-bas-le-ciel (Youtube name) ~  3:39 PM
Chess was simply the video game of its day.
Whiskey was the crack cocaine of its day.
To think you're doing something"refined" by listening to Opera (songs about boy loves girls, etc.) as opposed to listening to contemporary music is the most pitiable self-deception.
You think Opera and Ballet are superior to Britney Spears?  It's the same garbage, at a higher pricetag. @Friedtofu
If you're not actually racist against black people, how could you possibly regard rap music as LESS meaningful than that horse shit?
Swan Lake?
The video is a direct attack on YOUR delusions,
But your ego is so strongly attached to these excuses that you can't even hear it.
"Oh no, I would never use cocaine like these young people, I only drink whiskey while listening to Opera like my refined ancestors..."

YOU DON'T see how the critique I've already offered (in 20 min total) directly applies to this attitude?

Friedtofu ~  3:44 PM
How do you rhyme baking, or baking college with this purist dogma
I actually literally work  in contemporary (classical) music

a-bas-le-ciel (Youtube name) ~  3:46 PM
@Jonmonji No: you're deluding yourself just like the crackhead who says, "I don't get high like other people," or the person who watches junk television (ironically) but considers himself superior to other viewers in the same audience.

You smoke crack: you're a crackhead.

You play video games: you're a video game player.

Everything you've said here = excuses.

You smoke better crack than other people? You play better video games than other people? Really? How's that sense of superiority working out for you?

Vitaut ~  3:46 PM
Haha, go compare the music of Tristan Murail and rap, good luck

samtc ~  3:47 PM
Baking college was connected to vegan activism. @Friedtofu

Vitaut ~  3:47 PM
but that would be too hard for you

Friedtofu ~  3:48 PM
"Baking college was connected to vegan activism." @Friedtofu
@samtc ah smoking crack for vegan activism

a-bas-le-ciel (Youtube name) ~  3:48 PM
@Jonmonji You don't even have the detachment to realize what a pathetic joke of a human being you are (you MUST be) to offer a rationale for playing Civilization as "mental exercise", for your own benefit.  You have no idea to what extent you've condemned your own character.  What if somebody told you that prayer made them a better person? How fucking terrible a person do you need to be, if you can improve by taking to your imaginary friend? Playing Civilization = same question.
@Vitaut You racist piece of shit.

Friedtofu ~  3:49 PM
Why is race involved

Vitaut ~  3:49 PM
Oh yeah, I'm SOO RACIST. Note, I didn't say for instance that Coltrane isn't great music, there is nothing racist in the statement that RAP is primitive music

(Whispersinthrwind) ~  3:50 PM
What’s going on

a-bas-le-ciel (Youtube name) ~  3:51 PM
Right, "primitive" he says.  And you're not racist at all.  You're all at such a low level of intelligence that you can't see how the critique set out above already applies to you:
You're MORE deluded than the church-goer, who is at least aware that there's an act of faith involved…
You're SO deluded, that you think these cultural values are an objective fact.
Why do you think I take the time to upload and record these videos?
You guys really, REALLY do not understand the basic premise of the last two videos:
you THINK that you do
you THINK that you're in a position to offer me a morality lecture on the cultural superiority of Opera,
and you're not.
You're at the most baleful level of self-deception and self-justification.
YOU are the people I feel pity for at the church.
YOU are precisely the people who are HAPPY playing the video game Civilization V, and thinking you're superior to the people who Grand Theft Auto, etc.
YOU are the the people who think that playing the violin makes you a refined and intelligent person (as per chess vs. video games) and then looks down on someone who plays the keyboard in a rap group as inferior, etc.
And the Christians can imagine that THEIR version of song + prayer is somehow superior to the Hindu version of song + prayer, and ON AND ON it goes.
And you've got an opportunity right now to go back, watch those two videos again, and question the excuses you've been so deeply committed to, your whole lives long.
OR get the fuck out and stop wasting my time: I have never made videos catering to the sutpidest 40% of my audience —let alone the stupidest 40% of the (potential/maximum possible) youtube audience.

Jonmonji ~  4:14 PM
@MattOverDriver I do think I have gotten massively better at decision making as time's go on, but I don't think there's a way I could honestly attribute that to civ with a high degree of certainty that my enjoyment of the game isn't feeding a bias to support my continued engagement with it. Additionaly, there are other factors that have contributed to this development, and my improvement in decision making is undoubtabley tied, at least in part, to those many other factors (e.g. regular meditation, not doing drugs, having a job/trying to succeed at school, eating healthly, trying to sleep enough, seeking out advice from sources that claim to have insight on decision making/discipline, attempting to learn a language and sticking to it, and reading challenging material).

Also, whether or not civ itself has played a role in my personal growth might not mean much if it's just me, because if my life is a certain way and then after playing this game my life/ decision making were to have improved, it's not certain that this result would be consistently reproducible in an experiment with a sample of many participants.

MattOverDriver ~  4:24 PM
:thumbsup: I know a sample size of 1 is useless, what I was wondering was whether you were making the point that the game truly had a positive benefit or if you were just hoping so.

My take would be that you're learning the rules of the game, which are designed to give you a sense of learning and reward, while real world problems have much less clearly defined rules, and often the biggest difficulty is pinpointing where there is a problem that requires to be improved - the resolution can sometime be quite simple once you've found the problem i.e. how to get more people to save for their pensions? Make the decision people need to make be to opt out from pension contributions as opposed to the opt in direction it originally was

Tobin ~  4:44 PM
@a-bas-le-ciel (Youtube name) have you read about Tory Higgins self discrepancy theory in social psychology?
mentioned in this lecture and the following one in the playlist.

Frei01 ~  4:46 PM
@a-bas-le-ciel (Youtube name) I don't see how going to the gym is any better or worse than going to an opera or playing a game. If you don't like it and you don't get pleasure from it all 3 options are a waste of time.

Zdan ~  4:47 PM
@a-bas-le-ciel (Youtube name) Would you consider listening to music leisure? Or should that should also be thrown away as an activity that does not lead to the betterment of oneself?

a-bas-le-ciel (Youtube name) ~  5:41 PM
@Frei01 Do you not notice the words "get pleasure" in your own idiotic statement?  You're still playing the whole game as if the only purpose were to evaluate different modes of wasting your time in terms of which one would give you the most pleasure.

vi-gi ~  5:41 PM
@Socially Inept Weeb The invite link on his channel is not working

Jonmonji ~  5:48 PM
@MattOverDriver I haven't looked into the established science of how decision making in a simpler context translates to one's ability to make decisions in a more complex and ambiguous situations (but now I definitely want to look into it), but as a layman with a surface level understanding of psychology, I'm currently leaning toward the side that some of the experience in a game like civ would probably materialize in some way in one's ability/behavior in a different context when it comes to decision making.

I definitely wouldn't suggest that playing a game like civ on its own would prepare somebody to make decisions in a context that they have little or no education in, but where I'm leaning is if somebody has a education in finance or management or something of the like, I would not be surprised if time spent operating in the simplified context of a decision based game would help that person juggle the the factors to take into consideration a little easier than somebody who hadn't. However, I can't imagine that anything would teach you more in a real life situation than real life experience in that situation itself.

As an analog, somebody who plays a racing game might get a form of 'mental exercise' when it comes to reaction time or spatial reasoning or something, but they won't know how to drive a physical car until they do it. However, I don't think it's that crazy to imagine that the person's reaction time or spatial reasoning might outpace that of another novice driver who didn't play that type of game. My current unprofessional inclination is that it's probably a similar case in a game of decisions like civ or chess.

Frei01 ~  5:48 PM
@a-bas-le-ciel (Youtube name) just replace "get pleasure" with "get meaning". You go to the gym because you get something from it. Going to the gym doesn't give me any meaning in life.

a-bas-le-ciel (Youtube name) ~  5:55 PM
@Frei01 You are a bullshit artist, and you know it: there is absolutely zero sincerity in your engagement with this argument.  You'll make any excuse to lead a life of self-indulgence, and that's why you're so abominably crass as to imagine that you can easily substitute "pleasure" for "meaning", and vice-versa.
@Frei01 If you live by your philosophy for five years, what's the outcome?
Who have you become, and what's left of you, after five years of your self indulgence and your excuses for it?
@Frei01 And think through what you could have accomplished in the last 5 years if you'd lived by my philosophy instead.

(Whispersinthrwind) ~  5:57 PM
Hey is it possible build a country from scratch in this day and age

a-bas-le-ciel (Youtube name) ~  5:57 PM
Same thought experiment for the rest of you bullshit artists.

Frei01 ~  5:57 PM
I got a MSc in the last five years. Gaming didn't hold be back.

a-bas-le-ciel (Youtube name) ~  5:58 PM
@Jonmonji @Friedtofu See above.
@Frei01 No, that's where you're wrong:
@Frei01 How many hours did you log on your gaming rig?
Can you add it up?
You just lost the educational experience of a lifetime, and you don't want to admit it to yourself.

Frei01 ~  5:59 PM
The time I can write code is limited

a-bas-le-ciel (Youtube name) ~  5:59 PM
If you played games for just 10 hours per week: you just squandered the educational experience of a lifetime, and you'll never get it back.

Zdan ~  5:59 PM
With this conversation I was always wondering what about people that made gaming/creating games (which includes gaming almost as a must) their career?
It is just a simple answer in the style of: they picked the wrong career?

Frei01 ~  6:00 PM
The amount of time I can be completely focused on coding is limited.

a-bas-le-ciel (Youtube name) ~  6:01 PM
10 hours per week is enough to learn a langauge. It's enough to change who you are in innumerable ways, or at least plan for and worry about an unknown future and discover new opportunities.  10 hours a week could have gone into charity, political activism, helping others, learning from others, and so on.  How many hours, @Frei01 ?  How can you say that in the last 5 years, it didn't hold you back?
@Frei01 you know about my humanitarian work in Cambodia, right?
@Frei01 they had video games in Cambodia;
@Frei01 What if I'd played video games during those years, would I now say it didn't hold me back?
@Frei01 Or would I have the honesty to say I'd squandered the opportunity of a lifetime.

Frei01 ~  6:03 PM
My "goal function" that gives my life meaning is different from yours.

samtc ~  6:04 PM
Low ambition: and indictment of myself and everyone else making excuses. Video games don't hold us back because what we're trying to accomplish is so easy.

Zdan ~  6:04 PM
Another question or proposition - should one consider listening to music as leisure? Is all music the same in this regard or is there a spectrum?

Arsym ~  6:05 PM
I don't think I'll ever get an answer on my sex vs card game question. I guess everyone's got their sacred cow.

Frei01 ~  6:05 PM
I reached my goal: I got my degree and I have a job I like.

vi-gi ~  6:06 PM
@a-bas-le-ciel (Youtube name) Do you think there is a difference between art and entertainment, and also what do you think is art?

samtc ~  6:06 PM
No ambition.

Zdan ~  6:06 PM
The simple answer to that kind of goal is - this is very low hanging fruit.

TKAT ~  6:06 PM
Wash your penis stop playing video games

kovy_17 ~  6:08 PM
@Frei01 But can you honestly say , the time spent playing video games , there was nothing better to be doing? Even if majority of your time was spent coding and left someone mentally exhausted, why would playing video games be remotely meaningful to your life?

samtc ~  6:08 PM
"I reached my goal: I got my degree and I have a job I like."
@Frei01  I've done the same course as you. Been employed as a programmer for almost four years. I'm rotting away.

Frei01 ~  6:10 PM
Yes and I would do it again.

vi-gi ~  6:11 PM
And what did you find meaningful?

Frei01 ~  6:14 PM
I learned something from every match
I progressed and found new friends. I even visited some of them in real life.

Tobin ~  6:15 PM

[The video linked to is: Video Games, the "Skills" You Gain are an Illusion.]

kovy_17 ~  6:23 PM
Regarding finding friends, I don't really see how that's even relevant. You can find friends via almost any activity, like going to church or even drug taking. It's literally something that happens in almost every activity with human interaction

Frei01 ~  6:28 PM
I reached my SMART goal and I gamed in my free time. I did what gives me meaning and I don't regret it. I just wanted to come here and give my feedback. That's all I wanted to communicate.
Have a good time

vi-gi ~  6:29 PM
And now you will do your job and play games for the rest of your life or do you have other goals as well?

Frei01 ~  6:31 PM
no goals left. I'm done with my goal list.

Rowdy Isolation ~  6:31 PM
that sounds awful man
set some new goals
I am not even gonna sit here and tell you to stop gaming
just don't stop growing